When You Carry Concealed - What Do You Carry?
I was thinking about this question recently. I carry a Kahr P40. 6 rounds. I do not carry with a round in the chamber.
Two things come to mind here. First … is 6 rounds “enough”? I know people who carry a 9mm with 10+ rounds as well as two spare mags each with 10+ rounds plus a 5-inch knife, LED flashlight, and anything short of a portable water filtration system and satellite telephone.
I can’t carry that much crap, it makes me feel bloated.
So two part question for you …
First, do you carry with a round chambered?
Second … do you carry a spare mag?
Inquiring minds want to know!
Liberty on August 18th 2008 in Boomsticks!
Robb Allen responded on 18 Aug 2008 at 4:05 pm #
I carry a Glock 29 (10mm) with 10 rounds, one in the pipe, and the only thing preventing a large sound followed by something receiving a new 0.393700787 inch hole is keeping my finger off the trigger.
Once I start shooting IDPA and get extra magazine holders, I’ll also carry those. It doesn’t add much weight and never in the history of man kind has a person survived a gun fight and said “Shit. I wish I didn’t have all this spare ammo”.
Chad C. responded on 18 Aug 2008 at 4:13 pm #
If I’m just going out to put out the garbage or go to work or something, I’ll take my Ruger LCP with an extra magazine. I always keep one in the chamber, so that gives me 13 rounds of .380 Winchester T series Rangers.
If I’m going out, I tend to take my Springfield Armory EMP in 9mm, with one extra magazine. Cocked and Locked with one in the chamber, for a total of 19 147gr 9mm Federal HSTs. I’ll also drop the Ruger LCP in a pocket, but without the extra magazine for it.
I’ll also tend to have my Kabar TDI knife worn on my left side, as it’s designed to help you if you need to fight for retention.
Marko responded on 18 Aug 2008 at 4:29 pm #
I carry a S&W Model 13 six-shooter, with three reloads–one speedloader, and two speed strips.
Six rounds are enough for Joe Average when you combine them with good sense and a set of fast sneakers. I’ve looked into it, but nobody’s ever been able to cite me any case where a non-cop was killed in a shootout because he ran out of ammunition.
Sailorcurt responded on 18 Aug 2008 at 10:28 pm #
I have two regular carry guns. My open carry and winter concealed gun (heavier clothes to hide it) is a Ruger P97 in .45acp. It holds 8+1 and I carry an extra mag for it.
The second is a CZ-82 in 9×18mm (9mm Makarov). I use it for concealed carry in the summer when I’m only wearing a t-shirt to hide it under. It holds 12+1 so I don’t worry about a second mag for it. Actually, I’ve got another mag, but the baseplate on the CZ mags are thin metal and they cut into me when I carry them on my belt. I haven’t found a comfortable, yet accessible way to carry the mag so I just don’t bother. I figure if 13 shots isn’t enough, I’m probably screwed anyway.
The Ruger is DA/SA with a decocker but no safety. I carry it in condition two (round in the chamber, hammer down). It’s still only a trigger pull from “BANG!” but that first shot is a relatively heavy double action pull like a revolver.
The CZ is also DA/SA but has an ambidextrous thumb safety and no decocker. I carry it condition one. Round in the chamber, cocked and locked.
The only thing that makes me nervous about having two different systems like that is the fear that, under duress, I’ll forget to take the safety off on the CZ and won’t get a shot off. To alleviate that issue, I practice drawing and dry firing as often as possible.
I also plan to get a good full sized 1911 to replace the Ruger as my open/winter carry piece someday. That way both guns will be carried in the same condition and they’ll both operate in the same way. Better muscle memory and less chance for a screw up.
Probably more info than you really wanted, but there you have it.
Weer'd Beard responded on 19 Aug 2008 at 4:48 am #
I’d imagine it would be fairly hard to get a negligent discharge with that nice Kahr trigger on your PM40 (BTW thanks for letting me shoot it at the blogger shoot, it was a treat!) *Another way to look at it is do you think Marko is being rash for packing his revolver with a full wheel? Triggers are similar enough, safety features are near identical, yet semi-auto types seem to want to carry Condition 3, while the wheel-gunners just load the wheel up, or if they carry an empty chamber its the LAST one, not the first to prevent a drop discharge, so it works the same as a +1 Kahr*
Seeing as I’m still waiting on my new-and-improved permit my carry is restricted to just at home, and I carry my S&W1911Sc in a shoulder rig 8+1 in the gun, and two 8-round Wilson mags as counter weight under my right arm. I’m also hoping to pick up an airweight J-Frame today for pocket carry. Not sure if I’d carry that with a reload or not, likely 5 shots of .38 +P ought to do what’s needed (statistically speaking ZERO shots and just having a gun to present is enough 90% of the time) but I’m a follower of Murphey’s law, so if I can find a reasonable place to tuck a Bianchi Speed strip with an extra 6 pills (I have no idea what I’d do with that 6th round, as I’d likely just dump the strip on the ground with the spent brass as I go back on target)
One other thing to contemplate is when do you plan to rack your slide?
Most of the Israeli-Draw videos I’ve seen involve the slide being racked as the gun comes out of the holster and rises on target….that means that the gun will only be in Condition 3 for a few moments until a round is chambered. How exactly will those moments protect you from an accident? If you’re violating rule 3 AND squeezing hard and long enough to pull the trigger you’ll have an ND as soon as a round is chambered….if not then you’ll never have an ND no matter how you carry your gun. Face it, modern semi-autos are nearly 100% safe from Mechanical failure that would lead to an Accidental discharge, but on a defensive draw only your skills and training will keep that gun shooting when you want, and not shooting when you don’t.
Now on the other hand lets talk about the problems with Israeli-Draw. What if you don’t have both hands to draw? What if you short-stroke the gun? What if your Mag is bumped loose or improperly seated (one shot is better than none, and this is also the reason why I’d never defensively carry a gun with a magazine disconnect) what if you hands are wet, or slick, or otherwise you fail to get a good grip on the slide?
I could get more ridiculous, but overall I can think of some REALLY good reasons why carrying a semi-auto with an empty chamber could cause you serious trouble, meanwhile sloppy gun handling will get you into risk of an ND no matter HOW or what you carry. Good handling on a good gun like the Kahr will never give you any problems.
Liberty responded on 19 Aug 2008 at 9:22 am #
Thanks for the feedback everyone, great stuff.
It does pretty much come down to circumstances and timing. For instance, that half-second extra to chamber a round may not matter if there’s a reasonable distance between you and an attacker - reasonable depending on your training and comfort. Otherwise, you might just be in hand-to-hand territory regardless.
Definitely a lot of circumstances to think about which is why I posed the question in the first place.
That crossed my mind writing the post … “I wonder if this ever happened …” Interesting.
As for this:
Crap. Thought of the mag coming loose didn’t even cross my mind! The magazine on the Kahr is pretty damn snug, and you have to place definite pressure on the disconnect to get it knocked loose. It’s not like Hollywood where you can turn it upside-down, tap it, and watch the magazine fly 3 feet into the air, but still, excellent point.
Lots to think about. Hmm. I’ll probably have another post on this topic soon enough.
CTone responded on 19 Aug 2008 at 12:08 pm #
As long as your gun is holstered you won’t have a problem with having a round in the chamber. My wife carries a comdition 1 Kahr PM9 in her purse in a separate compartment with no problems, and my 1911 or Glocks are carried the same way. No issues to report.
Another reason an extra mag is a good idea is for the rare case where the mag in the gun is damaged. The mag is the weakest link in a firearm, and I don’t see it as having a Rambo mentality by keeping an extra. I’m used to carrying two spares if I’m dressed for it. If not then my G26 with teeny spare mag is good-to-go. The mags for your Kahr are pretty slim so an extra one might not slow you down too much.
I think six is plenty for just about any situation. I have read self defense stories where multiple rounds were fired, but they are rare. I think the average amount of rounds fired in an altercation is between three and four, if my memory serves me.
As for a knife, I have one on me at all times. A knife is the most useful tool one can own, and can be used as an effective weapon if need be. It will never run out of ammo, and if you carry one in your pocket you will use it everyday.
Weer'd Beard responded on 19 Aug 2008 at 12:58 pm #
“Crap. Thought of the mag coming loose didn’t even cross my mind! The magazine on the Kahr is pretty damn snug, and you have to place definite pressure on the disconnect to get it knocked loose. ”
Remember it doesn’t actully have to be on the ground to give you problems, just an accidental bump to the mag release might be enugh to get it to fall just a mm or two down and causing jams or failure to feed. That’s why they always to “Tap-rack” drills when the gun fails to go boom, either its a bad round or a poorly seated magazine most of the time, and if you tap the mag HARD, then rack the slide that will solve either problems in one quick motion.
Also note that the mag doesn’t need to be on the ground for the mag disconnect to engage! Just a slightly offset magazine might mean your trigger won’t work untill again Tap-and-rack….at least with a gun carried +1 with no disconect you’ll at least get ONE shot off before the gun fails….one isn’t a great number, but its WAYYY better than none!
Marko responded on 19 Aug 2008 at 2:11 pm #
Oh, yeah…carrying with an empty chamber turns a handgun into a handsgun.
Essentially, you’re betting your life on the assumption that you’ll have both hands free if/when you have to use that gun Right Now.
Have you ever accidentally released the striker on that Kahr while carrying it? If not, why not carry it with one in the pipe? (That also has the added benefit of turning your six-round gun into a seven-round gun.)
Jeff responded on 19 Aug 2008 at 7:10 pm #
I carry an M&P 9mm Compact 10+1. Definitely carry with one in the chamber. When I first started carrying, I carried my Browning Hi-Power. Before I carried outside my house, I carried around the house cocked and locked on an empty chamber. This proved to me that carrying with one in the pipe was safe.
Have you had any defensive handgun training? I took a two day class with NEShooters (www.neshooters.com) and learned a ton. I’ve got 3 days with Southnarc and 4 days at Front Sight coming up this fall. I expect Southnarc to be a huge eye opener. Most of the class is force on force with protective gear and simunition guns. That will be a pretty good lesson on what works and what doesn’t in a real fight.
The Duck responded on 20 Aug 2008 at 10:18 am #
Browning HP 9mm, usually 1-2 spare mags
SureFire E2D & a Spyderco
Strong side Paddle Holster, Light is clip in one Pants pocket, The blade in the other one, & just drop spare mag in vest pocket.
The Duck responded on 20 Aug 2008 at 1:22 pm #
Forgot to mention: one chambered & cocked & locked
Jake responded on 20 Aug 2008 at 5:04 pm #
Taurus PT-145 Millennium Pro (.45ACP) in an Uncle Mike’s IWB, condition 1, no spare magazine (though that may change in the winter).
Money means it’s my only gun right now, and it’s too big to conceal easily in my work clothes (a suit, usually with the jacket off so I can move easily), so I can’t carry there. It does go everywhere else with me, though. My next purchase will be a mouse gun and ankle holster for work.
Nicki Fellenzer responded on 21 Aug 2008 at 7:42 am #
I carry a .40 caliber Glock 23. I always have a round in the chamber. I carry it concealed on my person when I’m wearing fairly baggy clothes and in my purse with a different holster (one that will prevent some piece of garbage in my purse from pushing against the trigger and firing the gun for me. If my clothes are too form fitting and the gun makes me look lumpy, I just carry open. I’m such a chick!
Liberty responded on 21 Aug 2008 at 8:32 am #
Yeah, the last thing you need is a .40 flopping around and a cell phone knocking against the trigger. I can’t think of many things that would be more unfortunate standing in line at Target.
I’ve learned a few things reading some of these responses …
1) A lot of people carry knives as well. (I do the Leatherman thing because I’m a techie dork. I’ve been thinking about a sturdier, larger blade for daily “have it”.
2) Seasonal carry guns are not at all uncommon (ie: lighter pistol in summer, heavier in winter). Gun owners are a seasonably fashionable lot.
3) Plenty of you carry extra magazines. Robb’s description of “Shoot, wish I didn’t have all that extra ammo” hits the nail on the head for me. With keys, Blackberry, BT earpiece, Leatherman, wallet, I think I need a man-purse. And I’m sure there are people that carry a hell of a lot more than I do on a daily basis.
4) I have no idea where or why I developed the habit of carrying chamber empty!
Jeff - thanks for the neshooters.com link. I had no idea they existed! Might end up being a self-purchased birthday present.
Marko - Nope, never accidentally released the striker. The Kahr has a pretty long trigger pull compared to what I’m used to and with the pin block it’ll take deliberate pressure and nearly a half-inch of movement. What I think will take some getting used to is re-developing the habit of having one in the pipe. My handling doesn’t need to change (I have OCD when it comes to checking the chamber, storage, removing the mag, etc.) It’s knowing in the back of my mind that something is different that will take a bit of getting used to.
Bruce responded on 21 Aug 2008 at 10:03 am #
Warm weather: Ruger LCP in either an Uncle Mikes pocket holster or a Galco ankle rig. Full mag, one in the chamber. Gotta keep that finger covered.
Before I bought the LCP, I’d occasionally carry my POS .25 in my pocket with an empty chamber. Until I went to clean it one day and found out that it was in my same jacket pocket as a broken Dunkin Donuts sugar pack.
Sugar and Rem Oil combined make for a messy gun, and definitely not something you want your life to depend on.
For cold weather or open carry (or when I don’t care if the business end of the gun is showing under the untucked shirt), it’s the Ruger P345 in a Fobus holster on the belt, with a round chambered and the thumb safety on.
Jay G responded on 21 Aug 2008 at 1:04 pm #
Hmmm…
I carry one (or more) of four different guns:
Winter carry: Smith & Wesson SW99 compact 9mm. 10 round magazine + 1 in the pipe (srsly? empty chamber? NFW). Spare 13 round magazine for back-up.
I always carry my Gerber Paraframe - I’ve carried a pocketknife since I was like 8 or 9. That doesn’t change depending on what gun I’m carrying.
Summer carry: Either my P3AT (6+1 rounds .380ACP) or my S&W model 38 (5 rounds .38 Special) in my pocket plus 1 extra mag or 1 Bianchi speed strip in the opposing pocket.
In-between: the Snubbie from Hell™ Smith & Wesson 360PD - 12 ounce .357 Magnum J-frame. Sprechen zie ouch? Also with 1 Bianchi speedstrip loaded with .38 Special +P+.
BillH responded on 23 Aug 2008 at 8:24 pm #
Coming in late here, but what the heck. Kel-Tec 3at for Boise summers, shorts and t-shirts. One or another 38 snubbie with +Ps for warm weather with long pants and real shirts. Glock 27 for all the rest of the time. Actually, I have some shorts that will do well with the Glock, but the light nylon hikers don’t have beltloops, just a cinch, so carrying anything more weighty than the Kel-Tec isn’t comfortable.
Always ready to go, and always one spare mag or speedloader.
Usually have a small Gerber folder in my pocket as well.
I’ve been tempted to get a seriously spendy leather holster for the S & W 19… this IS Idaho after all, and it’d probably pass as a carry gun here.
Shamalama responded on 25 Aug 2008 at 1:39 pm #
Taurus PT1911
8+1
Carried in Condition One: one in the pipe, hammer back, thumb safety on.
I have a spare mag and a belt holder for it, but I rarely carry it.
existingthing responded on 25 Aug 2008 at 8:50 pm #
Two 1911 mags back to back in the left front pocket of my dickies work pants, and a small notebook in front of them prevents any kind of printing. The mags are thin and light enough that I barely notice them. Occasionally there will be some clicking of them hitting each other, but it it was really a problem, I’d fashion some cardboard silencers.